Alabama 1941 vs. Boise St. 2009
The Alabama Crimson Tide have had a dream season and earned their 13th national title. Nothing can diminish the achievements and the consensus that Alabama was the best team in 2009.
The NCAA and SEC only recognizes Alabama's claim to 8 national titles, and the most dubious of the titles claimed by Alabama is the title in 1941. Eight title by NCAA recognized selecting organizations is still far more than most teams can dream of any time soon, and is a tribute to the long history of success in this historic program that first proved to the nation that the SEC could play ball with the historical powers of that day in the mid 1920's.
The thesis of this post is that Alabama fans claiming 13 national titles should be aware that by the measure they use Boise State in 2009 (and any team finishing undefeated in any year) should have a share of the claim to the national title.
Here is the story of how Alabama came to add national titles to their media guide in the mid 1980's, an unfortunate pattern that was far from unique to Tuscaloosa.
How Alabama got 12 symbolizes the never-ending story of college football: Obscure ranking systems, confusion on how to declare a champion, and constant debate.
Here is another link (source likely an Auburn fan) that examines each of Alabama's national title claims, prior to this year. Of the first five titles currently claimed only 1934 was claimed in 1982. 1924,1925, 1930 and 1941 were added retroactively by selectors applying more recent ranking formulas on past years decades removed from the seasons. 1930 is the only year where a contemporaneous ranking gave Alabama a share of the title, a tie with Notre Dame who has won every other system outright that year.
You can see why people ridicule Bama fans when they talk about 12 NCs. The early ones were awarded by individuals years after the games were played. These weren’t consensus polls but NCs awarded by people that had their own formula for determining champions. Some NCs were given before bowl games that Bama lost. Using Alabama logic, Auburn could claim four national championships. But when Bammers brag they like to say they have twelve and Auburn has one. How silly. The NCAA recognizes 6 NCs for Bama and there are only two NCs that Bama has unanimously. You can’t find an Auburn site claiming four national championships but there are plenty Bama sites claiming twelve.
By far, the most dubious of these claims is 1941. Mississippi St. Bulldogs, who does not claim this year (or any other year), has a much better claim to the 1941 title. Let's examine the claim Mississippi St. could make for the 1941 national title.
In 1940 Mississippi St. had their second undefeated season in school history and capped this off with a win in the Orange Bowl and a #9 ranking. In 1941 they stormed through the SEC undefeated, won the SEC championship game and lost a single game to a Duquesne who finished ranked #8 in the final AP Poll. Mississippi St. finished the season ranked #16 in the final AP Poll. Mississippi St. beat Alabama 14-0 in Tuscaloosa in 1941. Alabama would also be shut out by Vanderbilt that year and finished 9-2 and ranked #20.
Alabama, with a lower ranking, worse record, no conference championship and a head to head shutout loss with Mississippi St. claims the title while Mississippi St. does not? Minnesota won the AP poll and almost every other selector, with Alabama having a single selector and #4 Texas receiving two selectors votes.
That's right. The Texas Longhorns have more right to claim to the 1941 title than Alabama. Undefeated #8 Duquesne has much more claim to the title with a win over a team that shutout Alabama. One could think of Duquesne as the Boise State of 1941.
So, if we are going to water down the right to claim national championships that those who claim 13 for Alabama insist upon, one should at least recognize the right of any undefeated team to claim a share of the title. This includes Boise St. in 2006 and Utah in 2004.
This includes the Auburn Tigers in 2004, whose title claims you love to ignore.
This includes Utah Utes in 2008, who staked their claim on the backs of your team.
This includes the Boise St. Broncos in 2009, who right to a title claim is a stain on your only BCS title.
By the measures you (The University of Alabama Athletic Department) have selected to use, Utah and Boise St. have more claims to national titles this decade than Alabama.
One day someone might dream up a system that allows all such claims to be settle on the field. I'll count your title claims as a vote for a 20 team playoff, your AP ranking in your 1941 title claim.
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Comments
The answer is SoS
That is the difference. In 1941, the AP was only 5 years old. And Alabama and the southern teams dealt with a bias that the MWC has never even dreamed of. Take a look at the 1941 rankings.
The top 2 teams that were undefeated opponents did not even have an overall winning record.
The #11 team in that years AP poll was Northwestern. They were 5-3. They had a schedule ranked 58th.
Alabama beat the #9 team in the Cotton Bowl that year, although that is a non-issue because final rankings were done before the bowl games back then, and bowl games did not count in the AP poll.
Miss St lost 2 games that year, and had a weaker schedule than Alabama. That is why the computer/math didn’t pick them.
Interesting note: That was the only year Miss St has ever won the SEC championship.
The AP was by no means a really legit poll in 1941. All you have to do is look at that to see how ridiculous the rankings really were.
Alabama was awarded the 1941 championship by a math/computer poll. Which of course took into account the strength of schedule etc.
Alabama claims 13 of the 18 championships recognized by the NCAA. 1941 is one of the weaker claims, but it was basically in response to the absurb bias in the polls of the time. Things were done differently back then, and it was a far far more biased world in college football then.
Btw, my computer ranked Utah #1 last year. I know another computer poll also ranked Utah #1. I guess it’s just a matter of the NCAA recognizing them etc. That might be a bit harder these days now that we have the BCS format.
Most computer polls in 1941
still go to Minnesota.
It was only some football almanac released in 1947 that selected Alabama.
My basic point that the national championship may be less mythical now than in 1941, but far from failing to settle things completely. This will be true as long as multiple undefeated teams are possible.
Texas 2005 is the only year in the BCS era where all selectors agreed on a team.
Four of the six computer algorithms used by the BCS had Utah ranked over Florida after the bowls, and are recognized by the NCAA.
BCS Evolution -- Punctuating the Equilibrium - twitter
I've never seen the data
The football almanac is known today as Sports Illustrated today, or is basically the same thing as Sports Illustrated back then etc.
I’m already in favor of a playoff. But you guys that keep thinking the way to getting that is by pushing the top teams down, rather than bringing up the strengths of the other teams is crazy.
All National Championships are mythical in nature. So I don’t see why you are attacking Alabama for 1941. I at first thought it was a bad claim, but the more I looked into the facts about the AP poll and such back then, the more I started to realize why it is claimed.
See, the BCS exists now when it didn’t back then, that is the big difference between the computer polls now and then. Although as far as my rankings go, Utah was #1 last year. If I was some big to do, I would have awarded it to them regardless of the BCS. However, the match ups for the BCS would have been different to start with.
It might have to do with the fact I live in NW Florida
I get to hear all the time about Alabama’s 13 titles.
This title was not claimed by Alabama until 1983 when Alabama decided to employ the methods several other universities were employing to pad their history.
Anytime you go back and claim something years ago that you made no claim to at the time boarders on ridiculous, and should be ridiculed appropriately.
BCS Evolution -- Punctuating the Equilibrium - twitter
You do realize...
That national championships weren’t really as big of a deal way back when right?
I mean, back in the day, it was all about winning your conference and your bowl game, and then that was all anyone cared about.
You are right.
Source said 2 losses that year, guess it must have counted a tie as a loss.
0-0 against LSU. Bet that was a boring game.
Retroactive titles
Any national championship any team claims before 1935 is a retroactive championship. ALL OF THEM.
Polls and things of this nature did not start until the mid 30’s. In the mid 30’s, some computer/math formulas went over the history years and awarded championships.
ALL teams claim those championships.
Take it up with the NCAA, they recognize even more than Alabama claims.
All this crap is nothing but sour grapes.







